It is currently Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:21 am


ScopeSync - Max For Live patches

The latest ScopeSync news
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

w_ellis

  • Posts: 630
  • Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostWed Dec 18, 2013 2:36 pm

P.S. Re. GUIs, you can usually type in values in the DAW's GUI and most have features that allow "fine" control of parameters, e.g. by holding CTRL while dragging with the mouse.
Offline
User avatar

sharc

Site Admin

  • Posts: 589
  • Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostWed Dec 18, 2013 8:45 pm

Hi Thomas,

It's basically to do with precision of the control. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the GUI control in Scope except that it is confined to Scope. You can save and recall the control positions with presets. How do you record the control movement though?

MIDI is very restrictive with only 128 values across a control range. You can smooth it, but the start and stop values will always be one of the 128.

For many tasks even 14bit MIDI with 16384 values isn't enough. Here are a couple of examples:

- Automating the frequency control of an oscillator - FM / Additive especially.
- Controlling the cutoff frequency on a filter with delay while switching the delay times with automation

With full resolution automation from the DAW using ScopeSync or similar there is no problem. It's always accurate ...or at least accurate enough.

Other benefits of having this control within the DAW:

- All hardware controllers supported by the DAW can be used
- Presets can be stored and recalled like any VST plugin. This is generally more flexible and reliable than Scope presets
- Users can customize the control layout to their preference

I hope this makes sense to you. Please let me know if you need me to explain anything better.
Offline
User avatar

sharc

Site Admin

  • Posts: 589
  • Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostWed Dec 18, 2013 8:54 pm

I forgot quite an important benefit. This one is admittedly quite subjective, but some users (especially those who use VSTs alongside Scope) will find it greatly improves their workflow.
Offline

tgstgs

  • Posts: 37
  • Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 10:45 am

implementing 14bit midi__
it is using 2 events combined;
up to the specs only 0 to 31 are defined_
where as 0 is reserved;

so were talking about 31 controlers in fact;

is it possible to define the combination of controllers in vst world??
lets say use CC #3 and CC #55 to 1 combined 14bit event ??
or is it restricted to #1 - #31 combined with #33 - #63 like in specs
--
good vibes
Offline
User avatar

w_ellis

  • Posts: 630
  • Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 2:03 pm

Most of the DAWs provide some sort of MIDI mapping that means that the user doesn't have to consider whether their controller is using 7- or 14-bit MIDI.

For example, if I load a VST into Ableton Live, I can learn a MIDI controller (like in Scope) and Ableton will handle the communication with the relevant VST control, at whatever resolution the controller supports.

Some of them also have the concept of a Control Surface, that automatically maps known MIDI controllers to certain standard tasks. For example, Ableton can automatically map the rotary encoders on the Ableton Push to settings in VSTs. That's something I'm trying to get my head around at the moment, especially in the context of 7- vs. 14-bit MIDI.

All of this means that the VST itself typically doesn't even know that MIDI is involved in setting encoder values (obviously it needs to process MIDI note messages etc. though).
Offline
User avatar

sharc

Site Admin

  • Posts: 589
  • Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 2:09 pm

tgstgs wrote:implementing 14bit midi__
it is using 2 events combined;
up to the specs only 0 to 31 are defined_
where as 0 is reserved;

so were talking about 31 controlers in fact;

is it possible to define the combination of controllers in vst world??
lets say use CC #3 and CC #55 to 1 combined 14bit event ??
or is it restricted to #1 - #31 combined with #33 - #63 like in specs
--
good vibes


The HUI spec uses CC#0-7 MSB and CC#32-39 LSB. With the extended 14bit CC spec you can definitely use the first 64 CCs giving 32 controls. Beyond that the support is sketchy. There would be nothing to stop you combining the CCs whatever way in a VST but you might have problems finding a MIDI controller which can be programmed to support such a non-standard spec.

Another option for 14bit MIDI would be NRPNs but those messages are twice the size of 14bit CCs and can be messy with control crosstalk issues at the receiving end.

If you can afford to dedicate a MIDI port to your controller (many connect via USB these days) then you've got 16 channels to play with using 14bit CCs giving up to 512 controls.

As far as ScopeSync is concerned the plugin itself doesn't really need to support 14bit MIDI because the most DAWs support it and allow the messages to be assigned to ScopeSync along with any other plugin.
Offline
User avatar

sharc

Site Admin

  • Posts: 589
  • Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostThu Dec 19, 2013 2:46 pm

While we're on the subject of 14-bit MIDI, I tested communication from the HUI-8F module in BC Modular to the first 8 controls on ScopeSync a couple of weeks back.

It worked really well. It's only 14bit compared to the full resolution of ScopeSync and would require 8x HUI-8F modules to cover 64 controls, but as long as ScopeSync doesn't have any other means of receiving control updates from Scope it's the best method available.
Offline

tgstgs

  • Posts: 37
  • Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostFri Dec 20, 2013 11:17 am

create a fifo buffer where you write in your data;
create a indexvalue to know where the actual writeposition is;
create a bool indicating if all aboth is created;

now just send the pointeraddresses of the fifo buffer begin and the index to scope;

so you send only 3 values only 1 time async to scope right_

in scope sdk6 plug just ave a look if bool is true with a wait at init (load into project);

compare readout index with inputindex if not read fifo and send to the pads;

have a nice christmas vibes
Offline

petal

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostSun Jan 05, 2014 9:18 pm

OK, I finally had a chance to test this out properly.

It works for me, thank you very much!

I had some difficulties setting the audio channels up right in Live, the "trick" is to choose the "external out" option under "audio to" and then choose your stereo channels of choise. Maybe worth noting in the manual for ScopeSync.

I also had a somewhat downbeat experience, when I realized that my newly acquiered Ableton Push currently only sends out standard midi. That means only 128 steps on those really nice rotary controllers... "They really did it - YOU MANIACS - YOU BLEW IT UP!!!" (Guess a movie ;) )
Fortunately I read on the Ableton Live Forum that 14bit midi might be supported in the future.

But automation from live to scope seems to be working at a much higher resolution (which was to be expected) than standard midi, although I do seem to notice steps when fast changes are talking place - I'm not getting smooth filter sweeps. I'm not sure if this is to be expected or if something isn't quite working at 31bit/1.5ms?

My test was simple: a saw tooth osc and a lowpass filter, hooked up to automation in live through ScopeSync. I then created a loop that controlled the filtercut over 4 bars. Steps are audible depending on how steep you make your curve. Is this to be expected?

Anyways, thank you very much for your effort!
Thomas
Offline
User avatar

w_ellis

  • Posts: 630
  • Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: ScopeSync + Control Source

PostSun Jan 05, 2014 9:55 pm

Hi Thomas,

Great to hear you've given it a go. I'm currently mid-rewrite, as I keep learning more about M4L and deciding that what I've done before is terrible ;) Anyway, the new version is in an unstable state at the moment, but I'm hopeful that it will be a lot better than the version you've tried. There are so many factors in play that could affect the frequency of updates and many of those have changed, that I'd suggest that we wait until I've finished this new version before looking into it in more detail.

I'm with you on the 7-bit control from Push... I hadn't even considered that they'd have implemented it with low resolution encoders 10 years after Behringer put 14-bit control into the BCR and BCF2000s. I do hope it's just a firmware change they can make, so fingers crossed. I think it's possible to hack the python scripts to increase the number of steps, but without a firmware change, that would mean twisting a control ~8 times for 1000 steps.

Keep an eye this post for updates in the near future!

Cheers,
Will
PreviousNext

Return to Announcements

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests